Imagine some stupid kid flying with the Junkers full of swastika's over controversial places and making screenshots. Yes, history should not be forgotten, but do not provoke people suffering from the memories of it.
The western "free world" is doomed. But I suppose the west needs to suffer under their own version of tyranny before they might finally understand how such things come about. Enjoy your police states you clearly superior moral beings of corectness.
Similarly the Red Star emblem on Russian and other planes was the symbol of their country, and not their political affiliation to a particular political party.
There is a difference. Hitler's Swastika was plainly meant to represent the NSDAP, flag - not the Luftwaffe. Just as the red star on your Mig doesn't represent a political party, and doesn't even adorn their flag, but is a national symbol with which they adorned their military (and civil) aircraft.
Actually the hammer and sickle WAS (in the Soviet Union) and continues to be in communist nations, a political symbol of the communist party and DID and still DOES represent the ideology of the party and the state as well as of those satellite states that also adopted the totalitarian tyrannical system. Using the hammer and sickle is no different than using the swastika. Both are symbols of hate and both should be allowed to be expressed as such in a free liberal society. At least if we ban expression regarding the swastika, we should be consistent and ban expression regarding the hammer and sickle as well, and then any other hateful symbols as we declare them as such. Otherwise it's just hypocricy.
BUT - I know that this particular image is very offensive and disturbing to many of the people who we share this planet with, and I see no point in putting something in their faces that will upset them, especially for something as ephemeral and fairy pink as a repaint of an old airplane.
As for the censorship of speech/expression, I'd point out that every country in the world has limitations on speech and expression. Have you seen any good snuff films on TV lately? No? Want to see them on TV on a regular basis? Want to be the victim of a snuff movie? No? Well, the reason why you don't see anything like that is because there are standards of censorship and expression that are not fit for anyone to view. What about videos of sexual assault on children? Are you OK with that?
There are many in the world who don't like the restrictions on either of those, and many more obscene and anti-human activities. So they wouldn't offend you, then? Well, they do offend me, and nothing you can say would convince me that there is any merit to such "works of art". How about you?
And yes, I do have a right to be offended, as does everyone - except, perhaps, you?
There is a very fine line between speech or expression that harms people and speech and expression that doesn't. I specifically drew attention to what some (especially in the United States, among other free western societies) refer to as "calls to action". Speech or expression can be reasonably restricted when it crosses this barrier, this barrier being the difference between saying: "I hate a particular person, I HOPE (key word) they die", and "I hate a particular person, SOMEONE PLEASE GO KILL THEM!". They are 2 very different expressions of speech. One, whilst indeed hateful and more ofthen than not shunned by the populous, is and should be PROTECTED free speech (i.e. "I hope someone dies"), the other is an active "call to action" which is trying to call for people's harm. This form of speech is restricted even in the most liberal of societies (such as the USA) because it crosses that very important barrier between simply offending someones feelings and actually calling for their physical harm.
So look, I can agree that to have any form of civilized society, we need some form of limitations on liberties, which is why, contrary to your insinuations, I also do NOT believe sexual assault, whether of children or otherwise, should ever be accepted, it crosses that oh so important line, obviously.
To bring this back into context. Hitler and the Nazi regime actively called for the deaths of people. They actively sought to murder innocents. If Hitler would have said "I hate Jewish people", that would be free speech and should be protected, HOWEVER, as soon as Hitler said "I hate jewish people, so let's kill them all", that is now crossing that very important barrier. So, again, back to context, a Nazi flag is a symbol of hate at most and can not and does not in any way cross that line, since it is just a symbol of hate, the symbol itself does not in any way call for violence. If it was a sign that said "Kill all Jews", then it would be crossing that line, then it should NOT be protected by free speech/expression laws. But it's not that, its a geometric shape. Hell, in India you'll find swastikas all over the place, they're a religious symbol.
If we start banning symbols because we're offended when in fact they do not cross that oh so important barrier of "calling to action", then what's to stop us from censoring ANY symbol people find offensive? What if I said the seals and emblems of the British Royal family offend me because they once caused mass deaths via imperialism? What if I say that about the previously mentioned Communist hammer and Sickle? What if I say that about the various logos of the pharmaceutical and medial industries, which have in fact, historically, as part of researching modern medicines, led to many peoples deaths? What if I say it about the likes of Apple and Samsung or any other modern mega corporation that exploits children in developing or underdeveloped countries for their cheap labour? Where does it stop?
It's just a symbol. You have every right to be offended by it, but you do not have a right to censor it because you're offended. Neither you, nor me, nor anyone else getting emotionally offended by a symbol or an opinion or whatever other form of speech or expression that does not violate that basic line of "call to action", have a right to censor said symbol, opinion, etc, on the basis of offense. It's beyond absurd, it's tyrannical and it's unnecessary for this kind of thing.
"start acting like the Nazis" Hyperbole at it's clearest. If you don't understand the difference between banning a symbol of hate, and putting people in gas ovens, then I hold out little hope for you.
The problem is, the west, or rather, many people of the west fail to grasp that this is how these things begin. Libertarians compare subjectively innocent breaches of liberty to what Nazi Germany did, i.e. "difference between banning a symbol of hate and putting people in gas ovens", as you put it, because these small breaches are EXACTLY what eventually lead to the bigger breaches. Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, didn't just one day, overnight and suddenly start mass murdering innocent people. It was a gradual build up. It started with small, innocent restrictions, more often than not, it started with banning or restricting certain speech or opinions. Eventually banning and restricting peoples right to self defense. Then they slowly moved to labelling people and eventually demonizing groups of people for some manufactured narrative they invented to justify their genocides. These things don't happen over night. It's not an on/off switch. It ALWAYS starts with small, subjectively innocent or serious (depending on your understanding of liberty), breaches of liberty and eventually leads to the many horrors of the past.
It's these exact same mechanisms driving the medical apartheid between the vacccinated and unvaccinated today, as we speak. The same mechanisms have been used to divide us all over many issues. And it always, ALWAYS, eventually leads to the same outcome: tyrannical dictatorship and mass genocide. It begins with censorship.
I suspect that turbohawk is either a spoilt brat who has never studied history, or a spoilt older person who hasn't studied history or politics.
"I want it, and that's all that counts, and if I can't get it I'll keep on screaming without thought of the offense and distress that I will cause others until I get it. And if I don't get it, I'll go away and bad mouth the site everywhere else, without disclosing what I did to cause the problem myself!"
Speech/Expression should never be consored because people get offended. You have no right to NOT be offended. The world isn't made of fairy pink pretty things, it's rough and tough and invitably people will disagree with you, which in turn can cause offense. We can never live in a utopia where everybody is always 100% nice and nobody is ever offended, at least not so long as people are free to think for themselves. There will always be disagreements. You have no right to not be offended. Grow up.
And where exactly did I go off and badmouth the site or not disclosing "what I did to cause the problem myself"? What are you even talking about? Resisting censorship in a "free" country is not badmouthing, it's duty. If we start acting like the Nazis and Commies do because "we're offended" then we're no better than them, and the men that died to protect our so called freedoms, died for nothing.
Right, exactly, thanks for proving that the vast majority of the western world has ZERO issues with communism or it's symbols, even though it's responsible for the mass murder of FAR more pepople than Nazism was. Go on any western social media platform right now and see how blatantly open western people are about liking, hell even gloryfing communism. Hypocrites everywhere. In fact, I'm willing to bet that when more Russian/Soviet planes come to the sim later on, people will have ZERO issue with the hammer and sickle symbols on THOSE planes, even though it is just as much a symbol of hate as the swastika is.
Display MoreThe "I'm from a free country" argument. You are not.
You have personal rights and freedoms guaranteed by laws but there are things you are banned from doing or owning also based on laws. No matter where you live, this is a fact. If a website sells Kinder Eggs to a kid in the US they will get in trouble. If a website offers the download of Nazi imagery in a country where it is banned they will get in trouble. It is very simple to understand and there are no moral judgements needed. It is a set of rules that this website needs to follow to remain open to those countries.
For the racing sim Assetto Corsa, I downloaded a livery for the Auto Union Type C driven by Bernd Rosemeyer in the 1937 Vanderbilt Cup. The real car had the Nazi flag on the side. The livery creator put the red flag and white circle but no swastika. As I was going to be driving it on tracks that recreate the look and feel of vintage tracks, I added the swastika myself as it would be historically accurate. On Il-2 I like my Luftwaffe aircraft to have historically accurate markings as well. With this Ju 52 I am flying it in a recreation of the modern world. In the modern world vintage planes do not have a swastika, I prefer it accurate. So anyone claiming they want the swastika for accuracy may be looking at it much differently than I do.
If you simply must have it in a modern setting, just get the livery and add it yourself. I didn't rail against the Assetto Corsa mod site for having a censored car. I understood the laws they have to deal with and did it myself.
And I understand your argument as far as laws go, which is why I suggested that, like many other platforms that try to cater to both free and non-free countries (e.g. Steam has a different version in China), that they could implement such a system instead of punishing all of us for the over sensitivities of some.
And mind you, I'm being generous in this particular instance, because whilst I do understand and can agree to the idea that law is law and must be respected, this argument flies out the window when unjust laws are made that restrict fundemental natural or God given human rights. The Nazis themselves had laws. The Commies have laws. Many of these laws were or are unjust and many breach natural human rights. I'm not sorry for standing up for basic rights. I will never apoligize for that. Every human being has fundemental rights to free speech, expression and self defense. Outside of what many have called "calls to action" in which people explicitly use their speech to actively call for violence against others, any other speech goes.
So, fine, ok, I understand and can agree with ya fellas on the idea that laws exist and that generally laws must be respected if we are to have a civilization. But I will not pretend for one second that unjust laws should be respected or not fought against. All countries that censor speech are dipping their toes in tyranny, and just because some countries are doing that doesn't mean the rest of us living in countries that don't should have to suffer too.
So are all of these countries Nazi or Commie? Sweden, Germany, Austria, Netherlands, France, Romania, Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Russia, Ukraine, because they (plus Victoria and NSW in Australia) all ban the use of the Swastika - indeed, these countries have all banned the use of any Nazi flag!
And this is a statement by the Liberal/National centrist party grouping in Victoria - https://vic.liberal.org.au/med…-to-ban-the-nazi-swastika. Are they all wrong and evil for banning such a despised symbol?
Yes. Censorship is never right. Many horrible things have been done in the name of a good cause. It doesn't matter how offensive the swastika is to some or what it represents even if that thing is horrible. It does not justify censorship. I especially find it funny when people and nations ban and denounce symbols like the swastika, all the while taking ZERO issue with the hammer and sickle of communism.The same people that want to censor the swastika and what it stands for, are trading billions of dollars worth of goods per year with LITERAL tyrants who have done many of the exact same things that Nazi Germany did, in order to get to where they are and are in fact STILL commiting genocide today; I'm speaking of course about China.
So next time anyone wants to quote me laws and point to so called western "free" nations that have banned this or that offensive thing, take a moment to rememer that these same oh so moral and politically correct nations that would ban the swastika have no problem not only allowing hate when it's convenient, but cooperating and actively trading with OTHER tyrants that have killed MORE innocent people and CONTINUE to do so during the present day.
Hypocrisy and moral grand standing really don't match fellas, and that goes for any individual make belief liberal, any private company and any government that dares employ these tactics of censorship and cancel culture only when it's convenient, to only later turn around and collaborate or even BECOME the very assh*les they criticized, later down the line.
This has nothing to do with recent events or the last two years. It dates back seventy-five years.
This symbol is illegal in Germany and Austria, and displaying it can lead to a prison sentence. As this site is available in Germany and Austria, the Swastika and other anti-constitutional symbols cannot be used. This has been the case since the end of the Second World War. It is possible to use it commercially in Germany or Austria, but you need German (or Austrian) Government permission. This is usually granted for major film productions.
In the Berlin Museum of Technology, they have a JU52 in WW2 markings, but the Swastika is projected onto the tail and not permanently painted on.
If you can obtain it privately, there is no problem.
Wow, one of the most delusional things I have ever read. Even the surviving Luftwaffe planes from WW2 don't have the swastika anymore. Look at them flying in any airshow. This did not happen in the last two years.
Before you get wound up in entitlement, this website has to abide by the laws of ALL COUNTRIES that it wants to remain available too. Allowing Nazi imagery would jeopardize their ability to be used by people in many countries. (Germany, Sweden, Austria, Netherlands, Poland, France and Russia for a few examples.)
Having the site cut-off from people in those countries would be much, much worse then not allowing a much smaller number of people to live out Nazi fantasies.
It's amazing to me that you're both so fixated on the fact that Germany, Austria and whatever other shitty coutries don't have any Freedom of Speech or Freedom of Expression that you must quote their shitty laws restricting these things to me. Guess what fellas, the likes of China, among other tyrannical countries, doesn't allow anything remotely critical of it government or historically inconvenient for them either, that doesn't mean we should all pretend it didn't happen or that we should censor history because some people in the government are offended and would rather hide their shitty history with laws prohibiting symbols than actually face the truth of what their ancestors did. Either way, whatever happened, it never justifies censorship and taking peoples freedom of expression away. Many websites and companies have filtering systems that smply don't show the content that some countries would rather prefer didn't exist whilst still providing that content to the rest of us who still have liberties of expression and would still like to remember history as it happened rather than hiding it behind political correctness and cowardice. But keep telling yourselves YOU'RE the good guys in this. HAHAHA!
And if you REALLY want that particular plane (for whatever perverse reason), why not ask the original author to just remove the swastikas, and re-release it?
I wanted it as it was for it's historical content. It shouldn't matter how offensive it was or may be, free societies don't censor the truth or their history and allow people to express themselves and explore said history, no matter how bad it was. Any society that doesn't do that is simply lying to itself that it's "free" or that it's actually apologetic about it's inconveninent past.
Only Nazis and Commies censor the truth they don't like. How interesting.
Hey bros,
Question is pretty much in the title. It seems the over sensitivity of the younger and spoiled generations of todays cancel culture have claimed another victim. Turns out, tyranny is only ok if it's done by communists or by the likes of our current oh so caring western leaders than stole all of our liberties away over the past 2 years.
TLDR: this https://flightsim.to/file/2132…icrosoft-junkers-ju-52-8k livery has been taken down. I am hoping someone else can make it available on a more inclusive and tolerant platform. I have of course reached out to the original creator first, but I'm fairly confident Flightsim.to won't allow this mod back up.
Anyone that can help in any way, please reply or PM me if you'd prefer. Thanks!
